tv Nancy Grace HLN February 27, 2010 8:00pm-9:00pm EST
speculation van der sloot would slip up. well, bombshell tonight. without daddy pulling the strings, thinking, even talking for him, loose cannon van der sloot gives a second confession. repeat. second confession. just days after daddy's crema d cremated, van der sloot says he dumped the body of teen beauty, american girl natalie holloway in a swamp on the north tip of the island. and it's all caught on video! will justice finally win out? >> how do you know she's dead, joran? >> i just know.
>> how did you see it? did you feel her pulse? did it go in one time? >> i just touched her and there wasn't anything anymore. it was over. >> did you try to resuscitate her? >> i tried everything. i even lifted her up. >> joran van der sloot told a >> shaking? >> yes, very much. so i said to myself, what is going on? >> what did you do then? >> so i stayed with her. there was nobody there, patrick. >> of course there was nobody there. it was night, joran. >> so i was talking to her, talking to her, talking to her. and she didn't say nothing. nothing. >> how long was she shaking for? do you know what that is? >> i don't know. >> an epileptic attack or something? >> i don't know. >> she was shaking? was there foam coming out of her mouth? >> no, no foam coming out of her mouth.
>> breaking news, joran van der sloot just confesses he dumped natalie holloway's body in a swamp. this according to the prosecutor who calls the new claim unbelievable. through the tv and i want to kill him. i mean, peel the skin off his face. >> good evening. i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. bombshell tonight. without daddy pulling strings, thinking, even talking for him, loose cannon, joran van der sloot, gives a second confession. second confession. only days after his daddy's cremated, joran van der sloot says he dumped the body of natalee holloway in a swamp on the north tip of the island.
and it's all caught on tape. will justice finally win out? >> how do you know she's dead, joran? >> i just know. >> how did you see it? did you feel her pulse? did it go in one time? >> i just touched her and there wasn't anything anymore. it was over. >> did you try to resuscitate her? >> i tried everything. i even lifted her up. >> joran van der sloot told a dutch tv station he dumped natalee holloway's body in a swamp. aruina's chief prosecutor tells cnn the claims are unbelievable. >> one time, patrick, this is what she did. >> shaking? >> question, very much. so i said to myself, [ bleep ] what is going on? >> what did you do then? >> so i stayed with her. there was nobody there, patrick. >> of course there was nobody there. it was night, joran.
>> so i was talking to her, talking to her, talking to her. she didn't say nothing. nothing. >> how long was she shaking for? do you know what that is? >> i don't know. >> an epileptic attack or so? >> i don't know. >> she was shaking? was there foam coming out of her mouth? >> no, no foam coming out of her mouth. i didn't see that. >> joran always denied that natalee died in his presence and now he confessed that. he told what he did with the body, and he told how he came home. what he did with his shoes. it's the complete story. >> just totally, totally dragged us all through hell with him. this joran van der sloot. >> i think that his pattern is that he will continue talking, but will he eventually be arrested and convicted and placed in jail for what he says? and your pessimistic attorneys say no, but they underestimate
our perseverance in the initial few days when we arrived on the island, and they made a decision to attempt to cover up the case and if we had thrown our arms up and went on home, you know, they would have been successful, but we're four and a half years into it and none of us have given up and we'll continue to seek out answers. we're a lot further along in the process than we were the first week. but whether we get the justice natalee deserves, that's the ultimate question. certainly not going to quit and if i do, everyone else will. that's not the option. >> straight out to jean casarez, legal correspondent, "in session." first of all, before we goat what aruban prosecutors will or won't do with their second videotaped confession, tell me what we know about what's on
that confession. >> here's what we know. we only know a little bit because it's going to be broadcast in the netherlands this weekend, but what we know that he confessed to taking the body and putting it in a swamp or marsh on the north side of the island. now, television station in dutch, in the netherlands, channel 5, was given this information some months ago. they're now going to broadcast it full on dutch television. the question is, nancy, what do we already know that can corroborate this? >> let's unleash the lawyers. we are taking your calls live tonight. it's my understanding that aruban prosecutors have been apprised that joran van der sloot, without his daddy around to think for him, has managed to give yet a second confession in the death of natalee holloway. with me tonight, raymond giudice. defense attorney, atlanta.
alan ripka, defense attorney, new york. gentlemen, welcome. first of all, ray guidice, how many videos does it take in order to get a prosecution? >> well, nancy, i'll concede i've had clients indicted for less evidence than there is out there against this guy. let me say this appears to be at least the third different version of fact that is he's given. he told an american reporter in '08 that he had sold natalee to a sex trade. that's why the prosecutors don't know what the truth is. >> what about it, ripka? >> he can continue to tell stories to many, many people, but until they get a piece of evidence that's going to corroborate what he says, they're not going to be able to prosecute him. however, the more he talks, the more directions the prosecutors can go in to try to find that evidence, nancy. >> joining me by phone, the chief prosecutor out of aruba. peter blanken. sir, thank you for being with us. >> hello. yes? >> yes, hello. hello, peter.
>> how are you? >> i'm well. sir -- >> okay. >> i understand that joran van der sloot has given another taped confession. is that correct? >> well, i don't think it is a confession. he has given an interview, and he has made a version of what could have happened. we saw the cd in september last year, and we investigated the declaration, he made statement and we found out that what he said was another lie. it wasn't true. the persons he mentioned, they all denied and some facts about location, we investigated and they appeared not to be true.
>> peter blanken is with us, the chief prosecutor out of aruba. mr. blanken, did he, in fact, state that he dumped natalee holloway's body in a swampy area? >> that's correct. that's correct. >> how did you confirm that that was not true? >> we found out all the things we could investigate were not true. and we asked if it was possible to -- for joran to come to aruba and point out where in the swamp he should have -- he claims to have put the body and then we can investigate that spot. but the place is about 700,000 square meters and it's about 200,000 square meters of water so it's impossible to have a thorough investigation.
on the whole swamp. >> okay. well, peter blanken -- >> we need more specific information. >> you are the chief prosecutor and you're telling me that you do not believe that's true, that you have investigated it, his last confession. >> yes. >> and in the same breath you're saying that you cannot investigate it because the swamp is so big. so, have you investigated or not? >> appears not to be true and what we would like to investigate mainly the spot where -- he said he wants to clear his conscience so let him tell where he put the body and then we can thoroughly investigate on that specific spot. >> joining me right now out of meridian, mississippi, is natalee's father, dave holloway. dave holloway, that does not
sound genuine to me. how can you say, i can't investigate it because there's too much swampland, and yet, we have investigated it and determined the confession is not accurate. explain to me your understanding, dave holloway. this is natalee's father. with us tonight. >> i was just wondering where this -- what the name of this body of water is and where it's located because, you know, i would probably be willing to get a search team together and go search all of it. >> how do you know she's dead, joran? >> i just know. >> how did you see it? did you feel her pulse? did it go in one time? >> i just touched her and there wasn't anything any more. it was over. >> did you try resuscitate her? >> i tried everything. i even lifted her up.
dragged us all through hell. >> he considered himself as a winner. >> yes. i know he knows. >> nothing was done right in the beginning of this thing, otherwise we would have an answer. >> i had the best time of my life. >> and one time patrick, it was just like in the movie. this is what she did. >> shaking? >> yes, very much. so i said to myself [ bleep ] what is going on. >> what did you do then? >> so i stayed with her. there was nobody there, patrick. >> of course there was nobody there. it was night, joran. >> so i was talking to her, talking to her, talking to her. she didn't say nothing. nothing. >> how long was she shaking for? do you know what that is? >> i don't know. >> an epileptic attack or so? >> i don't know. >> she was shaking? was there foam coming out of her mouth? >> no, no foam coming out of her mouth. i didn't see that.
he was set to have anothercy-down interview aired this coming weekend on national tv in the netherlands. >> that's right. in fact, that second interview may have been done today with the reporter of "the telegraph." he was set to do a second interview possibly shot today, originally there frankfurt but now in the small town of the netherlands. >> do we have any idea of the content of the third confession? >> no, we don't, but nbc is report that he is still saying her death was still an accident. that is corroborated with what you just showed on the air. the investigative report done on years gone by. >> and, but this is my question. if it's an accident that she passes away, that she dies, then
why does he hide the body? typically, when someone has an accident and is dying, you call 911, you try to help them. you don't put their body in the ocean or a swamp or bury it or call your dad to hide the body. if it is accident. >> but if you have the consciousness of guilt, you then decide to hide that body. >> to eli jostad, our editorial producer. elli, what were the circumstances under which these confessions, new confessions were given? >> well, nancy, it's our understanding that rtl channel 5 was approached by van der sloot and possibly also a friend of his who's described as this netherlands reality tv star. apparent think two of them made this tape together and then brought it to rtl. >> was he paid, ellie? >> that we don't know, nancy. there have been a lot of allegations that's why joran van der sloot is telling these stories to media outlets because he wants money. >> to marc klaas, what do you
make of it? >> well, i make several things. first of all, we know that he is consistently demonstrated that he's reckless and that he's sloppy. there is no way that joran van der sloot is going to carry the body of natalee holloway to the interior of a 70,000 square meter swamp. if in fact he dumped her in the swamp, it's going to be closest to the parameter of where he happened to be with that girl so i think that her father is right on spot. if he wants to find out where that land is so that he can go and do his own search. and i furthermore believe that this proving this theory or this confession by talking to the people he implicates is absurd because they're not going to implicate themselves.
by his own admission to authorities, joran van der sloot, the last one to be with her there on the beach. he says he left her on the beach. he tells an entirely different story on secret surveillance video. describing how she died. >> so i was talking to her, talking to her, talking to her. and she didn't say nothing, nothing. >> how long was she shaking for? do you know what that is? >> i don't know. >> an epileptic attack or so?
>> i don't know. >> she was shaking? was there foam coming out of her mouth? >> no, no foam coming out of her mouth. i didn't see that. >> then on a national tv interview he say that is he sold her into the sex trade. >> joran van der sloot's already told four or five different stories of what happened so so what if he tells a sixth story? >> has told a tv station he dumped her body in a swamp. the alleged confession that will be part of a dutch tv special on the case. >> just when you think it can't go on, joran van der sloot literally, just days after his father is cremated, true to speculation, the loose cannon gives another confession. not one, but two, and they are apparently caught on video. out to our producer rupa mikkilineni, joining us from new york. break it down for me. there are two more confession. of course, prosecutors are
saying they still don't have enough to prosecute on, but what do we know about the facts of these confessions other than he says she passed away, passed away. that's a nice way to put it then that's a euphemism. and then he buried or hid her body in a swamp. do we know if his third confession is the same thing or does it vary? >> the third confession, we don't know yet what he's going to be saying. we only hope he's going to give more details about what he's already said in his last two confessions. now, nancy, the thing is, we constantly talk about the inconsistencies and it's true the details of what he tells of the first two confessions are inconsistent. what's remained consistent is that he says he was there when natalee died, he felt guilty, didn't know what to do. supposedly. and then on top of that he confesses that he did get rid of her body. we don't know how exactly, but he did do it. let's not forget that peter devries the dutch reporter two
years ago also found another witness, a girlfriend, that joran van der sloot told that you are lying on the beach with somebody who knows how to get rid of a corps. >> rupa, you brought up an interesting point. out to dr. sanders, clinical psychologist. i thought this was just anecdotal, but after all those many, many years of cross examining felony defendants and their cohorts and their codefendants, very often, when they would tell these fantastic tales, they would weave a bit of truth in the story. i guess so they could keep up with the story and remember it. they'd stoic the truth and then when it's damning or incriminating, they veer off a little bit and come back to the truth and continue going and veer off and it was almost every time someone would take the stand against their own interest that this would happen. now, we see it happening with joran van der sloot.
rupa is pointing out, in all of these confessions, now we know of three caught on tape. there is this single, important fact that he was there when she died and he disposed of her body. what more do i need, dr. sanders? >> not terribly much more except for evidence in the aruban system. but that is the heart of pathological lying, nancy, that the person weaves fantasy, misdirection, in with the truth. and for the psychopath, which i suspect joran van der sloot is, there's an almost pleasurable reliving of getting away with it, like the way some serial killers revisit the scenes of the crime. >> out to the lines. nanette in kentucky. hi, nanette. >> caller: hi. >> hi. what's your question? >> caller: i'd like to know, where was the chaperones in
this? they were in a strange country. why -- where did the chaperones coming in to guard a little girl going off with a strange man? >> that's a very good question. to dave holloway, this is natalee's father. it is my understanding, it was a fine group of kids. none of them had ever been in any trouble before. there were a plenty of chaperons. but people have asked. what's the answer? dave, you have researched better than anyone on the show tonight. what's the answer? >> well, i understand there was one chaperone at the bar, and when the bar turned loose or let out, it's like they didn't have a plan and everyone scattered and some went to other bars or whatev whatever. and then she happened to be led to the car. and i think she was under the influence of possible date rape drugs at that point in time. >> you know, dave, we got to remember that they were there in that bar. she was there with a group of her friends.
it wasn't like she was off on her own. she was there with a pretty good bunch, i mean, a fair bit of kids were there. >> yes. >> she had been with joran van der sloot and they had had drinks together. so whether something was slipped in her drink we will never know. but then, as i recall it, back out to you, ellie jostad, they all left together and a group of her girlfriends got a cab and joran van der sloot said, hey, we'll give you a ride. >> right. right, yeah. that was one version of the story that joran van der sloot gave, that he and his friends just dropped natalee off at the holiday inn and that this black security guard walked up to her. remember, that's what ended up getting those two guys who had nothing to do with this arrested. was the fact that he said this guy walked up to her. he also said then later that no, no. you know what, i just left her on the beach.
she was going to sit there and enjoy is sunrise by herself. >> yeah, right. okay. and didn't he also say that she wanted to make love with him, but he didn't want to and he got up and left? >> well, yeah. he's also had a bunch of different versions of that story, too. sometimes he says they were just kissing, sometimes he says nothing happened. but in that undercover video, he claims they were doing more than just kissing and he planned to have sex with her, but then she started shaking and went into this apparent seizure. >> translation, said no. dave holloway, i believe that i recall speaking to beth, natalee's mother, and she told me that she saw in formal prosecution documents where he could describe natalee's underwear. did you see that or know of that in the official documents? >> yes. yes, it was in there. >> so, all of this bs about just
kissing on the beach, that is not true or he would not have been able to describe her underwear. >> right. and also, nancy, a lot of people miss this. there were discrepancies in their three statements from the very beginning. and it wasn't until about two years later that i found out that the police officer had a supplement to joran van der sloot's original statement that he failed to mention that the drop-off point was at the fisherman's house rather than holiday inn so it tells me that some police officers knew in the beginning that there were some discrepancies in the statements and instead arrested two innocent security guards and didn't make the initial arrest until ten days later. >> i want to go back to the chief prosecutor in aruba peter blanken is joining us. thank you for being with us. is that true?
were there discrepancies in the joran van der sloot original statements? >> let me say that joran van der sloot, he gave several statements. it's -- the whole period of four, five years, stated several things and most of them were contradictory. so, there were several statements, and we investigated it very thoroughly but we like the lost version of it, it was not true. it happened to be not true, and i sincerely would like to solve this case. i really would like to do that. but we have to have evidence. we have to have evidence to be in court and to get him convicted. in your program, i hear a lot of speculation.
i hear a lot of accusations, but what i need is evidence. >> with me is peter blanken, chief prosecutor in aruba. seems to me if he gives multiple lying statements that would suggest he is guilty. everyone, last thursday i asked you to for your thoughts and prayers for my mom. she has had multiple setbacks since surgery. i was so distraught that thursday night. tonight, i want to thank you for your outpouring of prayers, e-mail, kind words. during the night, that night of thursday, she made a miracle turnaround. your prayers were heard, and they were answered, and i want to thank you.
gave his initial deposition, i think that's where paul van der sloot came into action as far as changing up the statements and then doing what he had to do to get his son off. >> joran van der sloot's father has died. judge in training paul van der sloot collapsed suddenly in aruba while playing tennis. he was unable to be resuscitated. >> he wants to brag about this crime. he confuses infamy with being famous. he thinks that it's exciting and that we want to hear his stories. >> you can't prosecute a case based on admissions and
confessions alone. that's all they've got against joran van der sloot. >> there is some other evidence. there is the brothers, there is video of him, joran van der sloot, leaving a bar with natalie. >> ea he's going to pay the pri sooner or later. and she didn't say nothing, nothing. >> how long was she shaking for? >> yeah, you were talking and talking and talking, and somehow she just died. and you felt you had to dispose
of the body. let's unleash the lawyers. we are taking your calls live. we now learn in the wake of his father, judge van der sloot, untimely death. he dropped dead on a tennis court in a swanky court. two taped confessions. one we understand is part of some reality tv stunt. the other is set to air this weekend on a national network there in the netherlands. to raymond giudice and alan ripka. ray giudice in america, as well, you cannot prosecute someone solely on their own confession. there has got to be something else to core rroborate it. but he is on video leaving with her, he has told other people he was the last one with her. there were witnesses. the calpo brothers with him that evening. what more do we need? >> well, first of all, they haven't been able to make the
brothers roll in five years. i don't think that's going to happen. you would have thought it would. secondly, it's not the version or multiple version of facts that he tells. as the prosecutor pointed out, it's the version of facts he can prove, not speculation. an accumulation of bad stories doesn't make a conviction. >> ray, you know as well as i do, and you too, ripka, even when you cannot find a body, you cannot prove the mode of death, a prosecution can still go forward. ray, i watched a trial unfold where all there was left of the body was a glass eyeball. and there was a conviction. >> you have no -- >> so -- you've got him confessing, you have multiple witnesses seeing him as the last one with her that evening. you have people observing him and his father that night out searching the road near a pond.
i mean, it all fits together, in a cohesive story. >> yeah, no murder scene, no weapon, no body, and you keep calling these confessions. these are not under oath statements. they are not made pursuant to a law enforcement investigation. >> you don't have to be under oath to give a confession, ray. so why did you just say that? >> these are not -- >> why did you just say that? i don't know how you're trying to mislead the viewers? a confession does not have to be given to police in a recorded statement. >> because you know what these are. these are nonsensical statements made to the media for the purpose of probably getting paid. these are not what we would consider court-ordered under owing confessions. >> hold on. i told you the first time. to the former police chief, now at boston university. tom, i would like to actually see tom shamshek please, joining us out of boston. there he is. tom, just a yes or no. so we can clarify the misleading statements that attorney raymond
giudice just made, does a confession have to be under oath to come into court? >> no, nancy. >> in fact, someone could confess to their next door neighbor. no video. of. >> yes. >> no audio, nothing, and that confession comes into court. yes, no? >> yes. >> now, does a confession have to be made to police? in order for it to come into court? >> no. >> so it doesn't have to be sworn, it doesn't have to be made to police, and it doesn't have to be recorded in a statement. correct? >> well, the preferable route is to have it memorialized in a statement taken by police. >> but does it have to be a statement given to police recorded and sworn to come into court? >> no, nancy. there are other avenues. again, i'm the not an attorney, but -- >> in fact, tom shamshack, former police chief, isn't that
true that many, many times, if not the majority of times, murder defendants don't confess to police. they slip up and they confess to somebody else. somebody they trust. like a snitch, a relative, a neighbor, somebody in their gang, their gang, somebody in their neighborhood or in their circle of life? that's who they confess to, not nuns and priests and virgins and cops. >> you're absolutely correct, absolutely. >> thank you. now, i want to go back to marc klaas. marc, where do we go from here? there have been multiple confessions now we expect to have another one over the weekend on national tv in the netherlands. >> it's been very clear from the start of this case that there are at least two levels of justice in aruba and, as a son of privilege, joran van der
how do you know she's dead, joran? >> i just know. >> how did you see it? did you feel her pulse? did it go in one time? >> i just touched her and there wasn't anything anymore. it was over. >> did you try to resuscitate her? >> i tried everything. i even lifted her up. >> joining me right now dr. kent holtorf, internal medicine, joining us out of l.a. dr., thank you for being with us. doctor. >> hello. >> just assuming, just going out
on a limb and aassuming that joran van der sloot told the truth in this confession regarding dumping her body in a swampy area on the northern tip of the island of aruba, what would the condition of the body benow? >> the rate of decomposition of a body postmortem has many factors, in a swamp, very hot and moist it will he deteriorate rather quickly, looking at weeks to months there. are some processes where the fatty tissue can convert to a waxy-like substance but basically skeletal remains at this point. >> but they would still be identifiable could. you still get dna out of the bones? >> you can but it gets much more difficult. usually they go to records of the teeth, of dental records at that point. >> uh-huh. >> you have to also realize. >> go ahead, doctor. >> when you find skeletal remains people think of kind of what they see in science class and, also, "halloween" all the
connective tissue is gone it is basically a pile of bones. in a swamp under mud it is going to be very difficult to find those. >> out to the lines. nicole in california, hi, dear. >> caller: hi, nancy, love you, dear heart. >> thank you. thank you for calling n. what's your question? . >> caller: my question my head is about to pop off. >> mine, too. >> caller: this detective in aruba, is he serious when he says this second or third confession, they investigated and found it not to be true? what i want to know is how and please don't say just by asking and waiting for them -- >> nicole, i just asked, could you even investigate the swamp and he said, no and he said the reason they could not verify it is they asked joran van der sloot to come back and he wouldn't do it. okay? now, that would not hold up in america. there you have it. a special thank you to dave holloway for being with us. let's stop and remember army specialist is andre craig, jr.,
24 new haven, connecticut killed iraq. purple heart, gold star, gave up a scholarship to enlist. loved basketball, mentoring children and dreamed of being a state trooper. leaves behind parents, three sisters, five brothers, widow, shantaya, daughter, taylor, andre craig, jr., american hero. thanks to our guest, especially you. happy birthday to one of our superstars, liz, there she is with two at moem just adopted a little boy from china who needed a mommy and daddy. my sweet liz with the big, big heart. happy birthday, my love. everyone i'll see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp, eastern. until then, good night, friends.